IS AGING PROGRAMMED? Aubrey de Grey vs. Yuri Deigin debate at Vitalist Bay in Berkeley, CA (04/2025)

Is aging an inevitable consequence of wear and tear, or is it a hidden biological program?

Dive deep into one of geroscience's most fundamental questions in this intense debate featuring two leading figures: Aubrey de Grey, President and CSO of Longevity Escape Velocity Foundation, and Yuri Deigin, CEO of YouthBio Therapeutics. Moderated by Nathan Cheng of Vitalism.org and LBF.

In this lively discussion, they explore the core theories of aging:

The Damage Accumulation Perspective (Aubrey de Grey):
Aubrey argues that aging is primarily the result of accumulated molecular and cellular damage over time. He believes evolution prioritizes reproduction, and beyond that, there's no strong selective pressure for perfect maintenance and repair. This leads to stochastic damage. He challenges the idea of a deliberate "program" for aging, suggesting that if such a program were easily breakable, evolution would have already dismantled it.

The Programmed Aging Perspective (Yuri Deigin):
Yuri contends that aging is, in fact, a programmed process, largely driven by epigenetic changes. He views it as a continuation of developmental programs that eventually turn detrimental. Citing the vast diversity of lifespans across species (e.g., rockfish, monarch butterflies) and the ability of some organisms to "withhold" longevity (e.g., caloric restriction, queen vs. worker bees, Montane voles), Yuri suggests that lifespan is purposefully regulated for an ecological niche.

Why This Debate Matters
The answer to whether aging is programmed or a result of damage has profound implications for how we approach and develop interventions to extend healthy human lifespan. Watch as Aubrey and Yuri battle it out, dissecting evolutionary biology, experimental evidence, and the future of aging research.

Timestamps:
0:00 - Trailer
2:32 - Intro
3:05 - Aubrey de Grey's Opening Statement: Classifying Theories of Aging (Why it exists vs. How it works, Strong vs. Weak theories)
7:20 - Yuri Deigin's Opening Statement: Aging is Programmed (Adaptation, Epigenetics as Key Driver, Continuation of Development)
8:40 - Yuri clarifies his position: Programmed, Epigenetic, Evolutionary Adaptation
9:33 - Aubrey's clarification on "Weak vs. Strong" vs. "Programmed"
10:17 - Aubrey on Evolutionary Benefit of Aging (Evolvability) & the "Canceling Out" Argument
13:27 - Yuri's Rebuttal: Empirical evidence of programmed death in other species (Insects, Plants), Rockfish lifespan variation
15:37 - Aubrey's Response: Lifespan variation doesn't prove programmed aging
16:58 - Yuri's Rebuttal: Sexual Development as aging trigger (Montane Vole), Caloric Restriction implies "withholding" longevity
18:09 - Aubrey's Response: Genome versatility for environmental circumstances, Caloric Restriction explained by famine frequency
21:27 - Yuri's Example: Monarch Butterflies & Withheld Lifespan
21:58 - Aubrey's Response: Trade-off between Reproduction & Maintenance, Programmed Death in Semelparous species (Salmon)
23:41 - Yuri on Programmed Aging in Insects & Plants, Queen Bees contradicting trade-off
24:14 - Aubrey's Response: Programmed ability to reduce lifespan in worker bees, but not extend queen lifespan
26:00 - Aubrey on C. Elegans Lifespan Experiments and Dauer Pathway
33:42 - Yuri's Counterpoint on Nematode Lifespan Extension
35:08 - Aubrey on potential "cheats" for extended C. Elegans lifespan
35:34 - Moderator's Question: Does this debate matter for interventions?
36:09 - Aubrey's View on Practical Implications: Theories guide, but don't limit solutions
37:00 - Yuri's View on Practical Implications: Hedging bets, Brain control of aging, Signaling mechanisms (Exosomes, Hypothalamus)
38:27 - Aubrey on Heterochronic Whole Body Transplantation
39:44 - Audience Q&A 1: Male orgasms and lifespan
40:45 - Audience Q&A 2: Aging is programmable, Development speed, Epigenetic Clock
44:17 - Aubrey's Response to "Easy to break the program": Josh Mitteldorf's argument on redundancy & spontaneous mutations
46:02 - Yuri's Counter-Counterpoint: Artificial selection in fruit flies, Yamanka factors as "breaking the program"
47:02 - Aubrey on Master Control Genes & Resetting Genomes
48:28 - Audience Q&A 3: Transgenerational epigenetics (Imprinting, Rounding Error)
50:17 - Audience Q&A 4: Have humans escaped programmed aging? (Simpler organisms vs. Humans/Whales)
51:21 - Yuri's Answer: Similar life history patterns in mammals, Whales as example of extended program
52:20 - Aubrey's Answer: Population Viscosity & Kin Selection, Evolutionary benefit of programmed death

Connect with the debaters:
Aubrey de Grey:
  / aubreydegrey  
  / aubrey-de-grey-24260b  
https://www.levf.org

Yuri Deigin:
  / ydeigin  
  / yurideigin  
https://youthbiotx.com

#AgingDebate #AubreyDeGrey #YuriDeigin #Geroscience #Longevity #AgingTheories #ProgrammedAging #DamageTheory #Epigenetics #ScienceDebate #Healthspan #FutureOfAging