Customer-Centric Leadership with Annette Franz: Culture, Empathy & Business Outcomes

In this episode, Dr Chris Brown sits down with Annette Franz (author of Customer Understanding, Built to Win, Employee Understanding book) to unpack customer-centric leadership - the real linkage between employee experience, customer experience, and business performance. We cover practical plays leaders can use now: fixing toxic cultures (the “Sunday Scaries” test), moving beyond vanity metrics (Goodhart’s Law / NPS gaming), building personas, journey maps, and service blueprints, and using AI to strip low-value work so people can focus on high-value relationships.

What you’ll learn
• Why leaders still struggle with retention & engagement
• How to use the Sunday Scaries test to diagnose culture health
• Empathy in leadership
• From metrics to meaning: stop gaming NPS; fix the experience instead
• Personas, journey mapping, service blueprinting that actually change behavior
• AI help: automate FAQs, free humans for value-add conversations
• Case notes: Delta as a model for listening, culture, and profit-sharing
Chapters

Timecodes:
00:00 Intro & Annette’s JD Power origin
02:35 From CX → culture → EX → leadership
05:46 “Sunday Scaries” test for culture health
07:16 Culture is the shadow of leadership
11:49 The 3 pillars: Culture, Insights, Empathy
16:18 Personas & journey mapping that drive change
21:28 Making the financial case for EX/CX
27:28 Goodhart’s Law and NPS gaming
31:28 Psychological safety & real feedback loops
34:55 Root-cause vs. “lipstick on a pig” fixes
37:46 Underrated listening: stay interviews, exec listening tours
43:11 AI to reduce burnout, improve service
46:50 Why Delta gets culture → outcomes right
48:48 Where to follow Annette

About the Guest - Annette Franz
LinkedIn:   / annette-franz  
Site: https://www.cx-journey.com/

About the Host - Dr Chris L. Brown
LinkedIn:   / christopherlbrown  
Dr Chris L. Brown focuses on customer-centric leadership, organizational culture, and data/AI in service of customers and employees. He bridges industry practice and research, helping leaders design cultures that measurably improve CX and EX.

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