Xbox Underground Hacker | The Hidden Third with Mariana van Zeller

In this episode of The Hidden Third, Mariana sits down with Arman, an underground hacker involved in the infamous Xbox Underground case -- an alleged conspiracy federal investigators said targeted Microsoft and its partners and was valued by the FBI at more than $100 million.

Arman says he’s been hacking since he could type. Diagnosed with ADD, he found an early obsession and talent in computer programming, spending months in grade school learning how to break into systems most people didn’t even know existed. What started as a game quickly escalated: by fifth grade, he was hacking into his school’s mainframe, and soon after he claims he’d built a sprawling network of bots, giving him the power to control and monetize massive amounts of computing resources.

As a teenager, Arman describes earning tens of thousands of dollars, funding his own operation, and even consulting at 14 or 15 years old. But the underground doesn’t just come with money and status. It comes with consequences. He recounts being swatted three times as a teen by rivals and enemies targeting him, and how the paranoia and cat-and-mouse dynamics of that world can follow you long after the hacks stop. (Yes, he even admits to doing things like cutting a teacher’s internet when he didn’t want to turn in homework.)

Arman also tells Mariana about cooperating with the government as an informant, and what it’s like to move from “black hat” life into ethical hacking.

This interview is for reporting and education. We do not encourage or provide instructions for hacking.

ABOUT THE HIDDEN THIRD: From Emmy and Peabody Award–winning journalist Mariana van Zeller comes THE HIDDEN THIRD, a weekly dive into the underground markets that quietly power a third of the global economy. Every episode, Mariana sits down with people who know these worlds firsthand - the hustlers, smugglers, scammers, kingpins, and those trying to shut them down. The series reveals how they function, why they endure, and the profound ways they impact us all.

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