Primatologist Frans de Waal in Conversation with Isabella Rossellini

Dutch primatologist Frans de Waal argues that the study of our closest genetic relatives (an absolutely crucial way we make sense of our own biology) has been misguided by patriarchal assumptions. Primatologists, he says, have historically focused on masculine and feminine archetypes, and have systematically overlooked all who don’t fit this mold. In his experience, these outliers—gender non-conforming apes—comprise between 5-10% of chimpanzee populations. Unlike in human society, the chimpanzees are fully accepting of this diversity.

He is joined by cinema icon Isabella Rossellini—creator of the natural sciences video series Green Porno, with a master’s degree in animal behavior and conservation—to discuss his most recent book, Different. Together, they explore the matriarchal hierarchies of the ape kingdom, articulating all that we may learn about sex, gender, and nature from our simian cousins. This is inspiring without being maudlin: instead of looking to chimpanzees to justify who we are, we may look to bonobos to think about who we could be.

This project is supported by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation Program in Public Understanding of Science and Technology, bridging the two cultures of science and the arts.

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0:00 Introduction
14:24 Gender Diversity in Primates
18:52 Differences between Chimpanzees and Bonobos
23:30 Darwin, Skinner, and Primate Consciousness
32:53 The Significance of Diversity in Nature
36:06 Primate Sex & Pleasure
39:04 Flexibility across Gender Roles in Primates
43:23 What Women Primatologists Bring to the Field
45:29 Understandings of Animal Behavior throughout History
49:18 Seeing Animals from their own Perspective
50:52 The Personalities of Chickens, Primates, and Fish
54:18 The Primate Nature of Humans.


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