Discussion On: The Great Heist -- China's Epic Campaign To Steal America's Secrets

In this in-depth conversation, senior national security expert and author of "The Great Heist -- China's Epic Campaign To Steal America's Secrets," David R. Shedd joins Josh Rogin, of the Washington Post, to discuss the real scope and scale of Chinese Communist Party–driven espionage—and why the challenge is far more extensive than most Americans realize.

Drawing from his new book and decades of experience in the intelligence community, the discussion traces how the CCP has systematically integrated espionage, industrial policy, and economic strategy into a single, whole-of-society effort. The conversation explores how open democratic systems—built on collaboration, free markets, and global engagement—have been exploited through technology transfer, investment flows, human intelligence networks, and cyber operations.

The interview opens with a striking case study involving Tesla, Elon Musk, and the Shanghai Gigafactory, illustrating how access to the Chinese market has often come at the cost of stolen intellectual property and long-term strategic disadvantage. From there, the conversation expands to cover:

The evolution of Chinese espionage under Xi Jinping

The role of the Ministry of State Security and its massive expansion

“A thousand grains of sand” human intelligence collection

Cyber operations such as Salt Typhoon and their penetration of U.S. telecom infrastructure

The uncomfortable role of Western finance and venture capital in funding strategic competitors

The tension between protecting national security and preserving an open society

Throughout, the discussion wrestles with difficult tradeoffs—how to defend innovation, democracy, and prosperity without becoming the very thing free societies stand against.

This conversation is essential viewing for policymakers, business leaders, technologists, investors, academics, and anyone seeking a clearer understanding of how economic power, technology, intelligence, and freedom intersect in today’s global competition.